What do you see as the major differences in teaching between Messianic teachers versus popular Evangelical teachers
(NOTE: These answers are not presented in a particular order, just in the approximate order that they arrived from our contributors. Feel free to add your comments. If you have a burning question send it to steve@saltshakers.com or if you feel able to answer these type of questions email us to join our panel of "messianic rabbis".)
SANDRA JEFFERY answers ...
These popular Evangelical teachers are wonderful in presenting their topics, teachings and discussions. The only difference between themselves and Messianic teachers is that they preach a doctrine that is largely void of its Jewish roots. By this, what is meant is that the Jewish customs and feasts are not generally taught and understood by themselves or their listeners, which makes the New Testament somewhat confusing and not as rich in content in certain instances.
An example of this is with C.S. Lewis, one of the intellectual giants of the twentieth century, in his writing of June 5th in ‘A Year with C.S. Lewis’, where he quotes Jesus saying after his resurrection to Mary, ‘Don’t touch me; I have not yet gone up to the Father.’ John 20:17. C.S. Lewis points out that he does not understand this remark of Jesus, and states that it raises awkward questions in us. If he had studied the ‘First Fruits’ observance that is solely devoted to first things, he would have known that Jesus was raised on the first day of this feast and that he was to present himself to God after his resurrection as the first fruit of the dead. He had to remain pure, just as the High Priest had to be pure before presenting the first-fruit before God in the Holy of Holies for acceptance. Just as the High Priest could not be touched by anyone before performing this ritual, neither was Jesus to be touched by anyone before presenting himself to God. We are cheated of clearer understanding here and in other instances of the New Testament when we don’t understand the roots of these Jewish festivals and customs. These Evangelical teachers are dehydrated in this respect, but great teachers all the same….
RABBI GUTMANN answers ...
It would be difficult for me to answer specifically in comparing "Messianic teachers" with those whom the questioner describes as "popular Evangelical teachers like Chuck Swindoll, Woodrow Kroll, John McArthur" as I cannot recall either hearing or reading teaching from these named individuals. The choice of these teachers clearly reflects the spiritual and doctrinal environment of the questioner. Another person may have named T. D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, Matthew Ashomowola and Colin Dye as "popular Evangelical teachers" or others, of course. Apart from any "teacher's" view of Israel and the Church, I could not comment, except to say that the Messianic movement readily produces teachers, but far too little preachers! Hebrew, rediscovering the original Jewish church founded by Yeshua, Last Days etc. are all important matters. But God chose the "foolishness of preaching" to bring the lost sheep, both of the House of Israel and the "other" Gentile sheep, to the knowledge of His salvation. Preaching is not only for the benefit of the unsaved either!
RABBI CRAWFORD answers ...
Mainstream teachers in Christianity will not under any circumstances teach the true Sabbath or the true names of the Father or the Son. Because of these deficits, they are in rebellion and ignorant men. For this reason, I believe they cannot teach you much if anything. If you are a Sabbath keeper and know the names of the Father and the Son, then you already know more than them, or publicly profess more than they do- why do you want to listen to them?
RABBI JOSEPH KRESEFSKY answers ...
Ah, an easy one – they believe that Y’shua did away with the commandments – they believe that we, as Believers, are no longer obligated to keep the precepts and teachings of the Torah. They believe this because it is what the church fathers taught and as a result, it has flowed down through the generations of the church. The church will take a verse that Y’shua spoke, specifically Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them”, and they’ll say, “See, Jesus did away with the law.” How this verse equates to Jesus doing away with the Torah/Law I’ll never know. Y’shua clearly says, “I did not come to ABOLISH the Law or the Prophets – but to fulfill them.” Yes, fulfill them – He came to show us how to live them out – not how to live without them!
Let’s keep going with this for a moment...they will claim that all we are obligated to keep now is the Ten Commandments. Can anyone show me from within scripture where it says that? That is a mad-made doctrine – G_d never said it, nor did Y’shua! Further, if it were only the Ten that we are to keep, which it is not, but if it were, how come they do not keep Shabbat and how come they continue to produce images of things that represent G_d when these things are strictly prohibited in the Ten Commandments? When you present these concerns to the church, you will usually receive a response of, “that’s only for the Jewish people to follow.” So wait, Y’shua, who was Jewish, did away with the Law but these Ten He still upheld, and of these, only eight are required to be kept by the church? That doesn’t make sense! If Y’shua is G_d and G_d is Y’shua and G_d is the same yesterday, today and forever – and G_d said that these commands are for generation to generation, from everlasting to everlasting, then how...better yet, why would Y’shua do away with something that Abba said would be forever?
We don’t keep Torah for salvation – there is only one way to salvation and that is through Y’shua – we keep Torah because of our love for G_d. John 14:15 – If you love me, keep my commandments.
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Major Differences
I've been listening to Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum for some 25 years and enjoy his teaching from a jewish perspective greatly. For me it is critical to have a jewish perspective to properly understand the scriptures in their original context and the teaching is so much richer for it.
This question (the difference between teachers) is one I have often asked and one thing that has struck me over the years, is that in order to realise the weight of scripture, most teachers try to do so by finding application for their audience. In so doing they often neglect the actual context which contains more than enough weight in and of itself. For example take the Unpardonable Sin. Following the committing of that sin (it was a national/generational sin, not one an individual could commit either then or now, read Matthew 12 and note "this generation"), several changes in Jesus Ministry occur - there are no more signs except resurrection (Jonah), no more miracles unless personal need is accompanied by faith of the individual involved, His teaching is in parables to hide the truth, and a policy of silence is enforced concerning His person (who he is).
These changes are impossible to understand unless you are taught from a jewish framework. Without it, teachers are left to make the most of what are often contradicting messages; Jesus warned the disciples to tell no man that He was the Christ Matt 16! Why? Because by then the unpardonable sin had been committed and a policy of silence was operating. He was headed toward the cross.
IF teachers gain some jewish perspective they will find the meaning of scripture has weight enough in itself.
That said, this website leaves me a little confused. The 3 Rabbis quoted seem to advocate keeping the law of moses (all 613 commands)? This is incorrect. Rather than make the arguement please refer to the following example of the biblical basis for the end of the law and its consequences. http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament
Indeed, if the series produced on this website (Life of Yeshua bible study) is faithful to the original source material (cp Arnold Fruchtenbaum's - Life of Messiah from a Jewish perspective) then it will publish in weeks to come, thinking and evidence which directly contradicts the Rabbis opinion.
So that will be interesting.
But as to the original question I think the need to make scripture relevant drives a lot of teachers, and ignoring the jewish perspective can result in sometimes completely missing the original intent.
God in His wisdom, has allowed both and seems to use both as He sees fit.
Cheers DK
There are some good answers here, I think it's who you are...
I think the main difference is understanding who you are. If you think you are someone with a new religion that let's you off all the rules and guarantees salvation that can't be lost, you will have little need to understand or suffer the difficulty of keeping the rules. But, if you understand that all those who believe are the New Jews, then you will want to follow the Lord's commandments, you will understand much more about all scripture and you will grow to love the law of God. You will finally understand the rules are really the basic requirements for living forever. Things happen to people and society after living a few hundred years that we cannot predict in these little lives. One day we will understand the reason for all of God's law and wonder why we didn't understand it sooner. Understand the kingdom is achieved by precept upon precept and the more we understand the more we can see. The more we can see then allows us to understand more. I can't keep from commenting here on the big leap of understanding you get from physically participating in the kingdom feasts as best we can now. It really changes your outlook to find a good sukkot meeting and attend.
Ron Cash
roncash326@gmail.com
Messianic V Evangelicals
The comments of Rabbi Joseph Kresefsky are spot on,so many Christians and might I say, a fair number of Hebrew roots beleiveres think that G-d and Yeshua play by different rules..LET me say this..THERE ARE ONLY ONE SET OF RULES.. those given to the Jews and those who come to Judaism, these are the only ones we have to follow, not those of any 'Church'
Charles
when did yeshua present himself to the Father?
When did Yeshua present himself to the Father as the First Fruits ? Why did he let Thomas touch him and presumably the other disciples? Sorry - i may have missed a link somewhere.
Sarah Spain
Posted on behalf of Sandra
In order to fully understand why Jesus could not be touched by Mary prior to presenting himself to the Father after his resurrection, and yet was later touched by Thomas and the other disciples, we need to do a study on the Feast of Firstfruits.
In summary, I’ll explain the significance of the Passover season. On the Hebrew Calendar, Passover was (and is still observed) on Nisan 14th, followed by the Feast of Unleavened Bread for 7 days beginning on Nisan 15th through 21st, and the Feast of Firstfruits was Nisan 16th, also a day shared by both the Feast of Firstfruits and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Jesus was resurrected on the day of Firstfruits, and until Jesus had presented himself to his Father, no one could touch him because he was to remain sinless, just as the Priests presenting the first fruits of the harvest in the Temple to God, were not to be touched by humans because of mankind’s sinful nature. This was why Jesus said to Mary in John 20: 17 ‘Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father…’
No harvest items of agricultural produce including firstborn males of all animals could be touched until they were presented to the Lord first in the Temple. Only after Jesus had presented himself to the Father as the sinless and pure ‘Passover Lamb’, could he be touched by Thomas and the disciples.
The Feast of Firstfruits had its prophetic fulfillment in the resurrection of Jesus Christ as the beginning firstfruit of the final harvest - the resurrection of all mankind.
‘But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.’ 1 Corinthians 15: 20. KJV
I hope this helps to clear up any confusion.
Sincerely,
Sandra
sorry to be a pain but that
sorry to be a pain but that mentions " not yet ascended to the Father" once he ascended no-one could touch him.I wondered when the actual presentation to the Father took place - between being with Mary and then being with the disciples? and how did people take their first fruits to the temple without touching it?
SARAH
To Sarah
Read John 20: 19 to the end. All is explained there
Paul
thanks
Thanks Paul but it still doesn´t clear up why it appears as though Mary shouldn´t touch him ( according to sandra because of the first fruits parallel )yet Thomas did.
Of course Yeshua is the " first fruits from the dead " and knowing the feasts of YHVH enriches our understanding here.
Perhaps sandra could clear up the Thomas incedent.
difference between Messanic teachers and Evangelical
I am a follower of Jesus Christ who has been studying the Hebrew roots of my faith the past couple of years and I will tell you from first hand experience many Christians get offended when I tell them we are to still obey the Torah. When I teach the word of G-d from the pulpit and refer to the Torah as to what G-d could do they will tell me my God does not do those things that is Old Testament stuff. The L-rd has not moved me yet from my church However, the L-rd is bringing across my path other believers who too want to know the richness of the Torah, the Feast and the Sabbath. Many think keeping the Torah (law) is legalism. I tell them keeping Torah is how we love Jesus according to John 14:15
What do you see as the major differences in teaching between ..
The comments made by Rabbi Joseph Kresefsky is the clearest answer I have read concerning a Gentile Believer keeping Torah and Sandra Jeffery's answer highlights how little I know and what depth of teaching is missing the Gentile Believing World.
differences between Messianic teachers and popular evangelical t
I was the one who raised this question. Thank you for your answers. During December, the ones alluded to will offer series that are somewhat in keeping with the celebration of the birth of Yeshua and the Holidays in general. The 7 feasts in Leviticus are seldom if ever taught from my experience of listening to them on occasion. An approach to church history is perhaps another reason, and a third that I recently read was a difference in perception between the one who attends the church versus the one who attends a Messianic congregation. The latter tend to view things through the lens of 1st century belief, while the former are more concerned about how to understand a given passage in the light of here and now. What tends to be overlooked by some is "For the Jewish person Yeshua offered his life as a perfect sacrifice for humanity's sin," and for the Christian, "Jesus offered his life as the perfect Sacrifice for humanity's sin." Again thanks to all who commented and to Steve for posting this.
David