Jewish Roots Special (OCTOBER 2009)
SAFFRON PLANET CHAT (43 minutes)
In this wide ranging chat our team, a mish-mash of Jews and Gentiles, consider what happens when a Jew discovers Jesus and when a Gentile discovers the Jewish roots of their faith.
Conference with Saffron Planet and 50 special people
By Steve Maltz
Israel, The Jews ... and You
For all books by Steve Maltz, including special offers, bulk buying, reviews, extra information and lots more. Click here.
Cringe-free Christianity, warts 'n' all. Dare you? ONLY £2.14!
The Chris Hill daily devotional, a five minute audio fresh every day to inspire you.
By Steve Maltz
This book will turn your World upside down.
Conference with Chris Hill, Beresford Job & Steve Maltz
Our little show in Exeter, a seminar and an interview on youth radio. It's been a busy couple of days!
Have you joined our Worldwide weekly Bible Study based on the Hebraic background to Jesus and The Gospels yet? Click here ...
Here are the questions for this month, as answered by our wonderful panel of "messianic rabbis".
(If you have a question you would like answered, send it to steve@saltshakers.com )
If you are Jewish and new to all this, go here first.
If you are Christian and think we're weird, go here first.
If you are Messianic and need to know where we stand, go here first.
Shalom and welcome to
Saltshakers. We are both one
of the oldest and newest
messianic websites. Although
we began in 1996, we have
been dormant for many
years, waiting for the right
moment.
We now believe our time has
come, a time to get serious
with One New Man, as a
true expression of both its
Jewish and Gentile elements.
It is time to get Biblical, really
Biblical - not cultural,
"prophetic" or subjective. To
our eyes much of the "Hebrew
Roots" movement has been
hijacked since we have been
away, some elements have
even been called "cultish".
If you feel called to explore
the Hebrew Roots of the faith
in the Lord Jesus Christ, in the
spirit of One New Man - Jew
and Gentile - then please join
us on our journey. All that we
ask of you as an individual is
to learn to love and respect
your identity in the Body of
Christ. If you're born a Gentile,
then that's what you are. If
you're born a Jew, then you're
still a Jew. As far as what your
role is in the Body, that is
something that we can
discover together.
To fully enter into the spirit of
this website we ask you to
read two books, one
compulsory, the other
optional. First read the Book
of Ephesians in one go - it
will only take an hour or so
- and get a feel for what
Paul is talking about in One
New Man (Chapter 2). Read
it, pray about it and meditate
on it.
Secondly, there is the book,
"How the Church lost The
Way ... and how it can find
it again". It's a book that
really analyses what's gone
wrong with the Church and
how a knowledge of the
Hebrew Roots can put things
right. It's not an attack on
the Church, but it's a book
that every Christian leader
should read. It's the book
that is already challenging
the UK Church, for those who
have ears to hear. Hey, even
the Queen of England has a
copy!
CLICK HERE to buy a copy or find out more.
Our identity
As an English Christian (there, I have muddied the water still further) I have never heard arguments re. Jewish v. Gentile identity ever among Christian friends until coming onto this site and as far as I was concerned it was never a problem. Of course I understood that Jesus Christ was born a Jew, and that Jews were to be an example and blessing to all nations - but like all of us, for the most part were fallible and weak human beings. Hence the concept of The Vine which we clearly understood. Good Ministers teach the Old Testament and the New as one continuing story, the Old foreshadowing what was to come, as Revelations in the New gives us warnings for today. We are either Christian or non-Believer. There has indeed been a growing awareness that the Church was not doing its job as it should, with too many sitting in pews and 'doing good works' yet not truly understanding the demands of God in our daily encounter with evil within and without, and the Archbishop of Canterbury himself has commented in the past over what He sees as the church of the future. We all have to grow up, that is what we are here to do, and that includes the Church and nations as a whole. I find it a great pity that this argument is taking place now when there is so much to be done that unnecessary argument is to my mind futile. Every true Believer should be working for the Kingdom, not for the world, although we of course have to live and participate in it. We are clearly told in Galations 3:28 'You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. ' I also feel it is a shame that your website is headed with a Menorah whereas the empty Cross signifies the risen Lord for Christians world wide.
Every blessing
Mustard seed
jewish / Gentile identity (?)
I have listened to the chat - or quite a chunk of it - and I feel the central issue is being missed and until you deal with it you´re going nowhere.
Has the Torah been done away with ?
Is it for Jews only or is it a loving God´s rule book for holy living open to all mankind ?
My faith in yeshua fits like a jigsaw piece into Torah and as such exists as part of a complete picture.
Sarah (a gentile)
comment to Sarah (a gentile) Jewish/Christian Identity
I am not a feminist, but oh thank God for women !
God Bless,
Mustard seed
a PS to Sarah on Jewish/Christian Identity
In my comment, I should of course have made it clear - 'Thank God for enlightened women' - for the fair sex leaves much to be desired at the present time.
The Torah Is Not Done Away With
Reading through some of these blogs leads me to see that many are confused over the issue of Torah and as to whether it is for today or finished with. It is my observation that the confussion over Torah relevance today is based more upon the 'percieved' idea that the Torah is the 'law' and we are no longer under the 'law'.
The bible translators have done scripture a great injustice with this interpretation - there are many references to Torah in the New Testamant, but also references to the Oral Torah and other traditions which are seen in a negative light: lumping these together under one word "Law" is what has destroyed so much contextual understanding today.
Torah means "Teachings" which include "Law", but are not of themself all "Law". it is better to look at the Torah or Old Testament as an explanation:
The New Testament is the fulfilment of the Old - But - The Old explains the New. It is the commentary that clears up the confussions that we have by neglecting to look at it. A large portion of the New Testament is quoting the Torah and using it as explanation - should we do less?
Without the Torah and the Teachings G-d gave through Moshe and others of our faith we would not have any understanding or knowledge of G-d or the promised Messiah.
Torah = Teaching - Translated as Law
Oral Torah = Oral Teachings - Translated as Law
Temple sacrificial system - Translated as Law
If the reference is always 'Law' how do we have any distinction on the points being discussed. All becomes negative despite Yeshua having said:
Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud (') or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.
Matthew 5:18 CJB)
I completely agree that the
I completely agree that the Old testament is vital, in no way has it been chucked out or needs to be forgotten, it is still the word of God and powerful the point we were trying to discuss about was not to do with wheter OT scriptures are still relevant or not because of course they are, but how a Jew who becomes a christstian should see himself- completed Jew? Christian? should he celebrate the feasts? should Gentiles expect to take on jewish customs?- How should christians view the jewish people and is there a mandate for Jews who become christians to keep a strong jewish identity or is it up to them etc
Louie
becoming a " christian "?
I would question the need for anyone to " become a christian" and invite you to try and step out of that framework for a moment.
Shaul / Paul repented and had a dinamic revelation of Messiah Who then opened his eyes to true Torah observancy - in the knowledge of the Messiah and with that perspective in mind.
What is neccessary is new birth and repentance available only through the Messiah Yeshua / Jesus. The following lifstyle ,working out from that life-changing experience has / should have always fallen within the boundaries of biblical Judaism ( as oppose to rabbinic )not a lawless faith system divorced from it´s Jewishness.
to be continued.....
becoming a Christian
Indeed ! 'In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again".
(John 3.3)'
"Open the eyes of our hearts, Lord" that more might see !
Mustard seed
But I am an American and my native tongue = English - not Hebrew
I have attended Messianic congregations - both here locally and in a couple of out of state locations and the common denominator (coming from an American Christian point of view) is that unless you speak and write Hebrew, you leave feeling 'unfed' and 'substandard'. My wife was the first to get into this and then I explored it. My common complaint was that if I lived in Israel and was worshiping there, I would need to learn their language but I live in America and the primary language is English and it's all I know. So is the unspoken message from the Messianics who throw a bunch of Hebrew words out there that clearly have English words as well (ie. Shabbat rather than Sabbath - Sukkoth rather than Feast of Tabernacles etc etc) that one must learn Hebrew in order to be closer to God, as if they are a superior religion? I have listened to their 'canned' prayers in Hebrew and to me it's just a bunch of 'religion'. I have no idea what the prayers say and if they are translated into English, then why aren't they said in English to begin with - as I am was not speaking in tongues. I hate canned 'anything'. I believe God wants a 'relationship' with us, not a bunch of pharisaical religious acts. I don't agree with a lot of 'main-stream' Christianity either that is being preached today but I do not wish to trade 'American' man-made traditions (not supported with biblical commands or statutes) for the 'Jewish' traditions that are also man made - like lighting candles on the Friday evening etc... I wanna learn the TRUTH that is found in the bible as it is written - and I don't even mind learning about Hebrew root words - but leave the 'man made' junk out of it. I wanna learn the truth in a language that I already know - English. (Galatians 3:28)
keep going
Hi there,
I just wanted to encourage you to keep going at this - it´s worth it in the end.
As a gentile coming from a christian background it´s a question of constant " sifting " - retaining the good and decerning the fleshly.We must - with the help of the Spirit distinguish between " light and darkness ,evil and good , bitter and sweet ".( Isaiah 5 : 20 ) For too long the church has called the Law of God bitter inspite of psalm 19 calling it " Sweeter than honey ".
However some get too enamoured with all things Jewish and they are to be pitied and run the risk of losing sight of Messiah.....I´ve seen it happen here in Spain. Such is their desire to be accepted or find their identity within Judaism.
So please don´t let " them " rob you by putting you off. The scripture is for all and " the boundarylines ( of Torah ) have fallen for me in pleasant places " Ps 16
Try as much as possible to see things as Biblical rather than " Jewish " or " christian" - Abraham was neither (in as far as today´s definition of the terms )
Walk with God one step at a time and above all in faith or it´s nothing but vanity.Then you can have confidence when you´re amongst these " messianics" even if you don´t call God HaShem! We must fight for scriptural purity in our practise and challenge groups if we feel they´re adding manmade tradition.
SARAH - in Sapin